Hubzilla @ Kieler Open Source und Linux Tage?
!Deutschsprachige Nutzer !Hubzilla Outreach
Kieler Open Source und Linux Tage suchen nach Vorträgen
Hat da einer von euch irgendwas bezüglich #Fediverse allgemein und/oder #Hubzilla speziell geplant?
Kieler Open Source und Linux Tage suchen nach Vorträgen
Hat da einer von euch irgendwas bezüglich #Fediverse allgemein und/oder #Hubzilla speziell geplant?
Forums killed by GDPR: How about inviting their users to Hubzilla?
You know, Hubzilla could maybe have used the #DSGVO a.k.a. #GDPR a.k.a. "European privacy law" to its advantage.
Especially in Germany (where lawyers are right now misusing GDPR as a "get rich quick" scheme without any clients telling them to), a number of privately-operated forums have shut down right before May 25th because they could impossibly comply with GDPR, some of them having been close to 20 years old like the German Depeche Mode fan forum. And I guess that nobody dares to launch a new German-speaking forum anywhere in the EU now, leaving the former forum users pretty much homeless if they neither speak nor understand English.
What we could have done is get into contact with these people and offer them a new home on Hubzilla, thereby increasing and diversifying its user community. Hubzilla can be used as a forum host all right even though such a forum looks more like a blog than a bulletin board
I guess it's hard to regather them now. Besides, I don't know if Hubzilla's current hub infrastructure can cope with hundreds or even thousands of people flocking in at once. And since we aren't talking about extremely computer-savvy FLOSS geeks who can set up a LAMP stack at the drop of a hat, I've got my doubts that this will lead to more people running public hubs.
In fact, seeing as we're talking about people who right now neither know what the Federated Web is nor how it works, and who are therefore likely to have trouble picking a hub (and wrapping their mind about them all being interconnected), they'll all pile onto the same hub until it's full, and when it's full, they'll believe Hubzilla itself is full. That's why launching one new hub for any community in danger of losing their forum won't work: It'll probably be overcrowded in no time.
(Same as with everything else. Why does everyone have a Gmail account? Why does everyone have an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy? And so on? Because choosing what everyone else uses is a no-brainer. That's why launching more than one new hub might not work either: Folks won't know which one to pick and all join the one with the most users.)
Next problem: It's hard to know about something like this happening in advance. German news media didn't mention anything about forums closing down due to GDPR before these forums were actually shut down. And then it was too late.
Last but not least, potential future hub admins (and probably also regular users) will have their doubts that Hubzilla is GDPR-compliant enough to not be shut down. As of now, I'm afraid these doubts are justified.
!Hubzilla Outreach
Especially in Germany (where lawyers are right now misusing GDPR as a "get rich quick" scheme without any clients telling them to), a number of privately-operated forums have shut down right before May 25th because they could impossibly comply with GDPR, some of them having been close to 20 years old like the German Depeche Mode fan forum. And I guess that nobody dares to launch a new German-speaking forum anywhere in the EU now, leaving the former forum users pretty much homeless if they neither speak nor understand English.
What we could have done is get into contact with these people and offer them a new home on Hubzilla, thereby increasing and diversifying its user community. Hubzilla can be used as a forum host all right even though such a forum looks more like a blog than a bulletin board
I guess it's hard to regather them now. Besides, I don't know if Hubzilla's current hub infrastructure can cope with hundreds or even thousands of people flocking in at once. And since we aren't talking about extremely computer-savvy FLOSS geeks who can set up a LAMP stack at the drop of a hat, I've got my doubts that this will lead to more people running public hubs.
In fact, seeing as we're talking about people who right now neither know what the Federated Web is nor how it works, and who are therefore likely to have trouble picking a hub (and wrapping their mind about them all being interconnected), they'll all pile onto the same hub until it's full, and when it's full, they'll believe Hubzilla itself is full. That's why launching one new hub for any community in danger of losing their forum won't work: It'll probably be overcrowded in no time.
(Same as with everything else. Why does everyone have a Gmail account? Why does everyone have an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy? And so on? Because choosing what everyone else uses is a no-brainer. That's why launching more than one new hub might not work either: Folks won't know which one to pick and all join the one with the most users.)
Next problem: It's hard to know about something like this happening in advance. German news media didn't mention anything about forums closing down due to GDPR before these forums were actually shut down. And then it was too late.
Last but not least, potential future hub admins (and probably also regular users) will have their doubts that Hubzilla is GDPR-compliant enough to not be shut down. As of now, I'm afraid these doubts are justified.
!Hubzilla Outreach
Question is what was the reason for them to shutdown. GDPR is very broad. Its hard for me to realize what made those forums close down? They shared all credentials with 3rd party without consent? stored everything in open somwhere overseas? Used nonhttps connections? Stored passwords in plain text? What is the legit reason for closing down?
For example:
Impossibility to document everything that's done with visitors' and members' data down to the tiniest little detail.
Creating a fully compliant imprint was too difficult or downright impossible.
Impossibility to implement a functionality that wipes an 18-year-old forum clean of all data of any one user. Also, while it's about "private data", there is no clear definition of what exactly is considered "private" on a forum.
Having to negotiate with, for example, YouTube (and therefore Alphabet/Google) due to the exchange of cookies and IP addresses (these already count as personal data and fall under GDPR) for 10 years worth of embedded videos.
Having to negotiate with Google because everyone and their dog have been using Google Analytics because they were too lazy to implement their own analytics system.
And so forth. All this is stuff that German lawyers may get you for. And in the case of GDPR and in German understanding, "may" is already too likely to be shrugged off.
Last but not least, there are Abmahnanwälte looming over them like hawks waiting for prey plus the prospect of having to pay up to €40,000,000 if not fully compliant.
See, in Germany, GDPR compliance isn't understood as "that'll do". Germans are super-ultra-thorough. So are German lawyers, especially if there's something in it for them. So, in Germany, GDPR compliance means to fulfill every last paragraph and sub-paragraph to a tee, and if there are multiple ways of reading a passage in GDPR, assume the worst because so will greedy lawyers.
Impossibility to document everything that's done with visitors' and members' data down to the tiniest little detail.
Creating a fully compliant imprint was too difficult or downright impossible.
Impossibility to implement a functionality that wipes an 18-year-old forum clean of all data of any one user. Also, while it's about "private data", there is no clear definition of what exactly is considered "private" on a forum.
Having to negotiate with, for example, YouTube (and therefore Alphabet/Google) due to the exchange of cookies and IP addresses (these already count as personal data and fall under GDPR) for 10 years worth of embedded videos.
Having to negotiate with Google because everyone and their dog have been using Google Analytics because they were too lazy to implement their own analytics system.
And so forth. All this is stuff that German lawyers may get you for. And in the case of GDPR and in German understanding, "may" is already too likely to be shrugged off.
Last but not least, there are Abmahnanwälte looming over them like hawks waiting for prey plus the prospect of having to pay up to €40,000,000 if not fully compliant.
See, in Germany, GDPR compliance isn't understood as "that'll do". Germans are super-ultra-thorough. So are German lawyers, especially if there's something in it for them. So, in Germany, GDPR compliance means to fulfill every last paragraph and sub-paragraph to a tee, and if there are multiple ways of reading a passage in GDPR, assume the worst because so will greedy lawyers.
But in case of embeds, you need to just change the privacy policy and say that this is happening or switch off preview renders.
Also as far as analitics go. The easiest way is switching it off. Problem solved. I think those old forums had other issues such as no https implementation, storing passwords in database in plaintext and other technical things that should not have taken place anyway.
Also as far as analitics go. The easiest way is switching it off. Problem solved. I think those old forums had other issues such as no https implementation, storing passwords in database in plaintext and other technical things that should not have taken place anyway.
Hubzilla in communities
With some problems (admin needed!) we try to make our instance an example of what Hubzilla can be for a goal oriented intentional community. Once we are done with deployment, we plan to quit all low-security communication channels, cancel Wordpress and static pages and route it all to Hubzilla.
The next step will be to deploy all resource-coordination applications and use them in our daily work.
Finally we plan to learn how to use Hubzilla as the central community app for our meta-project
CNI Data Metaproject
by cnicoop on CNI Cooperative
If you like this approach, you are invited to join and support us.
The next step will be to deploy all resource-coordination applications and use them in our daily work.
Finally we plan to learn how to use Hubzilla as the central community app for our meta-project
CNI Data Metaproject
by cnicoop on CNI Cooperative
If you like this approach, you are invited to join and support us.
Cat Gun
Simon Anderson
muppeth
Very interesting project. We at disroot.org are trying a similar thing. We've started from a platform to offer services to people as a proof of concept. We are slowy working towards create a platform where poeple could easily duplicate the setup and collaborate to improve it, share knowledge and support.
It would be interesting to collaborate at some point.
We are also planning on moving to hubzilla as a goto social network (we will be phasing out diapsora once our hubzilla is production ready). At the moment we are focusing on theming hubzilla, setting up defaults, writting howtos and tutorials (also video) to make onboarding as easy as possible
It would be interesting to collaborate at some point.
We are also planning on moving to hubzilla as a goto social network (we will be phasing out diapsora once our hubzilla is production ready). At the moment we are focusing on theming hubzilla, setting up defaults, writting howtos and tutorials (also video) to make onboarding as easy as possible
Communities in Hubzilla
!Hubzilla Outreach
I think one of the great advantages of Hubzilla is the possibility to create forum-like communities with some special topic. This is a good thing to spread the word. If you are interested in Hubzilla and anything else: create a community (like I did for our regular pub meetings). I do not need to tell people about Hubzilla in the first place, but I tell them "we also have an online community to coordinate our meetings" and if they are interested I will tell about Hubzilla; if they are happy joining the community and don't care about the technical details I don't have to bother them with it.
You could create communities like that for any kind of group, scene, community, party, ... This will help bring people and "life" into Hubzilla. We do not need to talk about Hubzilla and funny cat gifs all the time ;)
With clones and nomadic identities someday someone will tell you "I like the idea of your book collector forum... is it in Hubzilla? I have an account in my old timer car community, maybe I will just clone it to your server."
That would be great!
I think one of the great advantages of Hubzilla is the possibility to create forum-like communities with some special topic. This is a good thing to spread the word. If you are interested in Hubzilla and anything else: create a community (like I did for our regular pub meetings). I do not need to tell people about Hubzilla in the first place, but I tell them "we also have an online community to coordinate our meetings" and if they are interested I will tell about Hubzilla; if they are happy joining the community and don't care about the technical details I don't have to bother them with it.
You could create communities like that for any kind of group, scene, community, party, ... This will help bring people and "life" into Hubzilla. We do not need to talk about Hubzilla and funny cat gifs all the time ;)
With clones and nomadic identities someday someone will tell you "I like the idea of your book collector forum... is it in Hubzilla? I have an account in my old timer car community, maybe I will just clone it to your server."
That would be great!
Hubzilla Outreach
Danie van der Merwe
Daniel Simu
Gwenny Gloom
I also think that regional communities are a great idea.
A topic related to a certain city or region makes it far easier to meet people who might be interested in your forum and are not on Hubzilla, yet, and tell them about your community ;)
A topic related to a certain city or region makes it far easier to meet people who might be interested in your forum and are not on Hubzilla, yet, and tell them about your community ;)
That is what we are trying to fire off from this hub, Askeröd is a small community in southern of Sweden with an engaged local group with focus of the time that has been (when there was a railway station) and the time that is to come (ability to live and work).
We are not many users yet and only few of them are active but we are know and there is invites sent to around 20 persons.
We are not many users yet and only few of them are active but we are know and there is invites sent to around 20 persons.
Thomas Runge
Brian Christensen
What about:
* Familys who want to have their own private cloud with the possibility to connect to other hubs
* Companies who want to share information and data with customers and partners and need by law control over their data
* independent artists or freelancer who want to share their art under fair licenses without giving google or facebook every right in the book over their own work
* schools who want to create their own networks while at the same time teach interested students how webservers work, how you make a professionell blog with an editorial team, how to administrate a community, and so on
* ...
I absolutely aggree that the politicaly suppressed (for whatever reasson) like sex workers in the US or drug consumers in the EU or even larger political movements or rebel groups might be attracted to the idea of Hubzilla as an censorresistant network, and I guess they can use it. But please note that public posts will be federated to other servers and might be illegal even to host in some countries (like supporting drug selling would be in Germany, I guess) and so you put anyone running his own hub in danger of punishment (in Germany maybe jail, in other, really suppressing nations maybe even worse) -- hence your servers have to be blocked.
Some of the groups you named will propably be more interested in anonymous darknet communities (maybe also running Hubzilla, why not), but the clearnet is not a lawfree space and also not really anonymous.
* Familys who want to have their own private cloud with the possibility to connect to other hubs
* Companies who want to share information and data with customers and partners and need by law control over their data
* independent artists or freelancer who want to share their art under fair licenses without giving google or facebook every right in the book over their own work
* schools who want to create their own networks while at the same time teach interested students how webservers work, how you make a professionell blog with an editorial team, how to administrate a community, and so on
* ...
I absolutely aggree that the politicaly suppressed (for whatever reasson) like sex workers in the US or drug consumers in the EU or even larger political movements or rebel groups might be attracted to the idea of Hubzilla as an censorresistant network, and I guess they can use it. But please note that public posts will be federated to other servers and might be illegal even to host in some countries (like supporting drug selling would be in Germany, I guess) and so you put anyone running his own hub in danger of punishment (in Germany maybe jail, in other, really suppressing nations maybe even worse) -- hence your servers have to be blocked.
Some of the groups you named will propably be more interested in anonymous darknet communities (maybe also running Hubzilla, why not), but the clearnet is not a lawfree space and also not really anonymous.
Talya De Fay
LPS
Michael Mitchell
Vorher würde ich wohl wieder eine obligate Session zum Thema beim BarCamp Kiel halten wollen.